hey, if anyone wants to talk here, please do. no bashing or demanding of answers, explanations, etc. it’s just to say hi and remember that there’s a community out here.
ETA:
1. if you comment at shakesville under a different name than you’re using here, can you let us know who you are?
2. just in case they’re needed, assume the same commenting rules work here as at shakesville and feel free to enforce them if i’m not around.
ETA 6/11/09: re comments: i’ve reset my comments to be moderated now, just in case you post and don’t see it immediately.
Hi. I don’t really have anything to say, other than this is very cool and thoughtful of you, Q Bert!
A new thought I’ve had since yesterday is that the course of events that led to the current hiatus included long time shakesville commenters commenting in a way that was hurtful to Liss. This happened even though the other commenters and moderators chimed in almost immediately, and the original commenters apologized. I’m not blaming anybody: I could have been one of those commenters myself.
My current wondering is along these lines: what is Melissa (and what are the other contributors) getting back from Shakesville, in terms of strength and courage and motivation to keep going? Is it something that she’s been doing out of pure teaspoon wielding duty, or is it something that she gets joy and enthusiasm from? Because pure duty is not sustainable, is not the way to live one’s life, and somehow I’m getting the feeling that the community-management part of the site has been more of a duty than a pleasure in the past weeks or even months.
i think you’ve hit at least one of the nails on the head. it’s the reason PD has put up the monthly reminders to donate. i believe that she does get some personal fulfillment, but, especially of late, it’s been a feeling of duty to the world and you can only do that for so long without burning out or changing tactics.
i don’t want to put words in her mouth, but this is my interpretation of what we’ve heard from her over the last few months.
It was frustrating to me personally to have someone point out that a good way to show support for Shakesville was to donate money or purchase a subscription, only to have another commenter jump up and say “it’s okay if you can’t donate, though”.
Seriously? Melissa’s feelings mean so little to some people that they can stand in a space she provides and say that it’s okay to not show appreciation in a way that would matter significantly to her? Teaspoons for everyone, but not for her?
Liss has said that she makes little to no money from running Shakesville. I believe that the attention she received as one of those “foul mouthed anti-Catholic bloggers” that William Donohue criticized the Edwards campaign for hiring has made it hard for her to find a job. Still, she won’t ask for money to keep the site running, and she shouldn’t have to.
I donate money to Shakesville, and I wish their was a sliding scale membership fee. I know that administratively this might be extremely difficult if not impossible to pull off, but I think it’s necessary. I think it’s too difficult to rely on goodwill / charity / responsibility. I get the impression Liss et al. – incl. many of us – see the site as a sort of commune, but in reality, that kind of structure rarely works. I realize what I’m suggesting may be antithetical to the spirit of the blog, but short of installing a subscription fee, I don’t see how Shakesville becomes a financial going concern, ever. At least not w/o an angel investor/donor.
I will add that PD and Liss have been among those who have said it’s ok if people can’t donate.
InfamousQBert, thanks for this space.
Jay, the problem was that for some of us, supportive though we wanted to be, giving money was *not* an option.
It was never – to my knowledge – said because Liss’ feelings didn’t mean anything, but rather because Liss herself knew and understood that not everybody can contribute financially, and didn’t want anybody to feel bad for not being able to contribute.
And I can see that it could look frustrating for you, if you contribute – but think about it from the other side, and think how frustrating it could be to have everybody saying, effectively, “if you don’t have money, you don’t care about Liss”.
(I should also say that I’m really *not* trying to pick a fight, or anything stupid like that, and I know that everybody fundamentally means well.)
I think the thing that pissed commenters off was the “everyone can”–obviously, people who read and love the blog and who are having trouble getting food and shelter can’t, and negating their experience was a bit thoughtless.
Yes, I believe I was the commenter who “jumped up” and made that reminder, and at *no* point did I say that Liss wasn’t valuable or that her work was worthless. I just took issue with the comment immediately prior to mine which said “You know what everyone can do? Donate!” Because a lot of people *can’t*, especially right now. And it was something that has been carefully pointed out, again and again, by Liss and by other moderators, and since no mods seemed to be around I tried to step up and speak for those people. FWIW.
bye-bye CTD.
Thanks for this, Qbert.
So I’m currently bashing in my brains over attempting to register for classes at teacher’s college this fall. The form wont accept my info and some of the info I apparently need is not available via the site, and I was told that I don’t need it through email by one of the registrar people. At this moment I’m thinking I should just print my schedule, add in my elective and mail it to their office for their own manual input. Fucking webforms.
hugs to you. we had our own issues with webforms at my beloved’s school recently. much drama with confusing explanations of how financial aid is distributed for summer school. you know, i’m not old by any means, but i went through college just as things were getting migrated to being all online. as much of a pain as standing in line for my classes was, i’m kind of grateful that i only had myself to blame if i woke up late on registration day and didn’t get the classes i wanted.
Thanks for setting this up! FWIW, I did see it on the Disqus community page. 🙂
I was away in London from 5/31 – 6/7 so I missed all the unraveling, most of which happened in long comments threads.
I can’t help but wonder if Tiller’s assassination is important context here, i.e., it’s been a really, really rough time for feminist teaspooners. Not to mention maybe post-vacation the more toxic problems of trying to manage an open access safe space were just that much more intolerable.
Anyone else have some better understanding of what’s occurred in the last while, someone who wasn’t away and not on the blogosphere?
Again, thanks for setting this up. Here’s hoping to find some more Shakers congregating!
i was away too, and i’ve been trying to catch up via the links that some of the moderators left on various posts. i think we’re looking at the proverbial straw vs the camel’s back. there’s just been a LOT of shit lately and it finally boiled over. i’d love to hear more takes on it, though.
also, thanks to everyone for stopping by. it’s so good to see you all and have someone to talk to again!
I found this link at “The Hand Mirror” that is to a comment of Paul the Spud’s that provides some chronological background:
http://shakesville.disqus.com/two_minute_nostalgia_sublime_smokey_the_bear/#comment-10497613
The Hand Mirror blog, that is.
http://thehandmirror.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-good-blog-goes-down.html
There were a lot of trolls that popped up after Tiller’s assassination, too, which couldn’t have helped. When I checked Shakesville at about 7 am EST, some troll was helpfully explaining in an old thread that the problem with abortion was that men should have a say in what women do post-conception. FU, creep. To be blunt. I guess that’s classic trolling- when you do a Google search to find old threads and desperately harass therein.
Did you guys catch that Dr. Tiller’s clinic will close:
http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/845541.html
(Is that a derailment? I have ADD, so my sense of these things isn’t good. It all ties in together to my mind, but my mind is peripatetic, to say the least.)
I thought it was staying open?? WOW – that’s awful. I read earlier reports that one MD there for 10 yrs promised it would stay open. I wonder if he/they’ll re-open somewhere else? This is horrible.
doesn’t seem like a derail to me. seems very relevant.
Hi, IQB. Thanks for setting this up. I was getting especially uneasy because even though people need to chat about it, every post there is another post a mod has to check even though they’re trying to take a break, so it was hard to know what to do.
Just wanted to say I noticed and thanks!
Thanks for this – I was away during the first weekend of the month and thankfully missed most of the drama? If there was any?
I’ve always held that our first duty is to our own mental and physical well-being. I hope all the Shakesville contributors are taking care of themselves and that no one is ill. Otherwise I have no expectations…
Hi, all! Glad to see you here. Thanks, IQB, for setting up this thread. I’ve been missing the Shakers.
I haven’t posted anything on Shakesville relating to Liss’ and others’ absences; I figure enough people have expressed what I would have, and I don’t want to add to the pile-on. I also stayed out of the weirdness that has been happening on the comment threads. I’m pretty non-confrontational IRL and that carries over online, I guess.
I’m conflicted about the fate of Shakesville — on the one hand, I would miss it terribly if it were to go away; I think it’s an important blog and I learn so much and enjoy it every day. But on the other hand, I can only imagine what an emotional toll it must take on Melissa and the other posters and moderators to have to keep up with it and deal with all the vitriol that comes their way. And I feel selfish to expect them to do that for me.
So I suppose we’ll see what happens . . .
Thank you, QBert — I don’t have much time now, but will definitely be checking back when I get home today or tomorrow!
This whole debacle has raised some interesting questions for me in an academic sort of way. I know one of the major problems at Shakesville has been the incessant flouting (both willful and ignorant) of the community’s rules – triggering language, concern trolling, thread derailing, etc. – by commentors. This is par for course with most community sites, but what makes Shakesville great is that it happens so rarely; the amount of constructive and intelligent dialogue there is astounding for an open blog site. I’m wondering if there’s any feasible solution to trolls and thoughtless comments short of severely restricting membership to the site. Is what happened at Shakesville the price one must pay to exist in the blogosphere? Given the structure of the internet (and the nature of our society), is it unreasonable to expect an absence of drive-by commenting/trolling?
i think the issue was less the drive-by trolls, and more the regular commenters that were engaging in triggering comments. people weren’t thinking and, while most profusely apologized after being called out it, it’s still there and contributes to an atmosphere where that becomes acceptable.
I have put my proverbial foot in my mouth more than once on Shakesville. But I have also stayed out of certain conversations or arguments — especially lately — because I know that I cannot contribute anything meaningful or positive.
As Liss said in one of the threads, it’s a commenter’s responsibility to think about what they write before they submit it; it’s not the job of the posters or moderators to clean up after everyone.
Well, I’m about to sound like a complete hippy but… the last two weeks of May-beginning of June, Mercury was retrograde. A TERRIBLE time for all communication, which is why I think many regular commenters (myself included) phrased things poorly.
Also, I just don’t think Melissa is going to be able to control concern trolls at an open blog. Period.
This is par for course with most community sites, but what makes Shakesville great is that it happens so rarely;
Yes — in my loitering on other blogs and other communities, it’s really struck me how incredibly, amazingly well-moderated Shakesville is without stifling legitimate debate. I mean, I knew that already, but it’s really been brought home to me in the last few days. Just yesterday, out of boredom, I logged into a private feminist community I haven’t been to in ages and found a well-respected poster there bashing me for asking a question about women’s health, apparently because it was a “stupid question.” All I could think was, “This would NEVER happen at Shakesville. Ever.”
It is really odd, because I was also away for the whole week.
I hope that we can continue as a community, with or without Shakesville.
Thanks Infamousqbert for setting this up.
I like the way you framed this hope, NameChanged…
For so many of us Shakesville is a refuge… but the (extremely hypothetical) loss of Shakesville should not mean the end of the community that Melissa McEwan created there. One of the things I admire about Melissa is how hard she works to convince us to be personal activists.
I know that I’ve been going through the comments and clicking through to people’s personal blogs, and adding them to my bookmarks, hoping that I’ll be able to keep up with some of the community that way.
Thank you for starting this!
I just want to say that I hope that Liss and all the Shakesville mods are getting some much needed peace and time to themselves. I’d rather not comment on the future of the community/blog because I don’t want to add to Liss’ stress, but I will say that I appreciate everything she does, and I’m sorry if I let her down by not being around this past week when things really came to a head.
Is this thread a safe space for those of us invested in the site to speculate on its future? I hope so…
We do have a stake in Shakesville as daily readers/commenters/participants, donors, no?
Are we stakeholders or merely passive readers? Is it Melissa’s blog or a community website? I think these are important questions for us to grapple with, particularly considering Liss is dependent on her readers for revenue, but feels uncomfortable asking us for it. We either subscribe and contribute, and it becomes “our” site too, or it remains her blog and she’s dependent on our sporadic goodwill.
What do you all think?
I think the problem is that we’re not shareholders in the site, any more than I am a shareholder in my local newspaper just because I pay 50 cents a day.
Melissa shouldn’t have to ask for compensation. Like NPR says every time there’s a fund drive: “It’s our obligation to pay for the services we use.” Shakesville undeniably provides a much-valued service to its readers.
Well, but NPR DOES ask for compensation — in all honesty, Melissa has started a non-profit education and advocacy site, and she needs to fundraise to keep it going at the level it has been. I work for a small (actual) non-profit, and the one part of everyone’s job that they HATE is the asking for money part — but it HAS to be done. In essence, having PD do it is like us hiring a fundraising/development professional.
The problem (one of them) is that this started as a hobby/sideline and is now a full-time business, but without the matching business plan. And I have no idea if Melissa is interested in it being her full-time job this way. If she is, then she needs to consider the fundraising as part of the project — whether or not she does it herself or delegates. If not, and it is ENTIRELY her call — then she SHOULDN’T be sacrificing her career and income to service the site.
Oh I absolutely agree that it’s necessary for Shakesville to fund raise. I was trying to imply that in a perfect world filled with sunshine and frolicking unicorns, ‘Liss wouldn’t have to donate – we’d all recognize her contributions to our life and give out of a sense of obligation.
I completely agree with everything else you wrote, too. Agree agree agree.
I love Siobhan’s comment below, but I also think yours is a great point too. And I think this has been some of the murkiness of late. Are we subscribers or share/stakeholders? So far, neither, but probably the former is the appropriate model, but the latter seems to be the desired – and currently, failing – structure.
D’oh! Siobhan’s comment above! Apparently. 🙂
Tricky threading system.
And boy are those NPR fundraising drives annoying! But they sure work! 🙂
Thanks for opening this up. I’m a regular read of Shakesville, but not a regular commenter. I was wondering why there weren’t new posts. I’ll miss Melissa and co. if she decides not to continue.
FWIW, I’d miss Shakesville terribly, but would totally understand and support the decision if they closed the site. Blogging is an incredible drain, esp. unpaid. It’s a labor of love or a job, but rarely both at the same time.
It seems like the writing’s on the wall that it may be time for Liss to move on, or else radically reclaim the space from the rest of us, which she may not want to do.
I’m just speculating, of course…
Hi all-
Finally stumbled across this after a few days of looking for, well, something like this. Really don’t have anything to add, but you can put me in the “I’ll miss Shakesville if it goes, but I respect and understand why it would be too stressful to continue” camp.
What other blogs have people been reading with all this free time?
i’ve been popping into the contributor’s blogs a little. it’s not the same, but it’s nice to hear familiar voices. several of them have links on their profiles on the contributor page of shakes.
feministing is my other regular stop. i don’t really participate in the community there, but i find the news-source aspect to be almost as good as shakesville.
Yeah, I work for myself, so it can get a little lonely during the day. It’s SO reassuring to have a community that I can feel safe in and feel like I have so many kindred spirits. I guess I’m still a little more optimistic that Shakesville will stick around than others here, but that could be hope talking.
i’m definitely staying on the optimism train until it goes completely off the tracks, but i do think a discussion of what to do “if” is totally warranted.
Pandagon is a favorite — it’s also VERY interesting, since Amanda and Liss have such different styles (but both were part of Edwards campaign and both suffered backlash there). Pandagon is NOT a safe space, although Amanda strongly discourages threats of violence and other inflammatory language — but she almost seems to love the trolls, takes joy in confronting and exposing them.
But Shakesville was my first stop.
I like Feministe and Echidne of the Snakes, and Hoyden About Town is great as well. I used to really like Feministing, but although the contributors are great, the commenters are, I don’t know, not always the most enlightened. (It wasn’t always like that, though.) I’m trying to see this as an opportunity to appreciate other awesome blogs that I haven’t paid as much attention to.
Also, I assume Melissa will still be writing her column in the Guardian — so regardless we can look forward to that! 🙂 (And the Guardian in general is a lovely paper, most of the time.)
Is this thread a safe space for those of us invested in the site to speculate on its future? I hope so…
We do have a stake in Shakesville as daily readers/commenters/participants, donors, no?
i think yes, as long as it’s not with any demands on melissa or other contributors.
i totally agree that we have a stake, if not a controlling one, in what happens, and i would miss terribly the community and alliances i’ve made were shakesville to permanently shut down.
i would love to see a discussion of what we can do to preserve this group. do we migrate to a new blog and start over with the same mission statement? do we try to create a whole new community with an entirely different purpose – i.e. just a chat space instead of an activist space? what are some ideas we’ve got here?
Hi infamousqbert.
I think you are absolutely correct that we need to keep this community together no matter what happens to Shakesville, and I think we could do it, either as a chat space or a Yahoo Group or a blog, but I little concerned about the ethics.
This is the problem: we’re in limbo, and the clock is ticking.
It could be that there is a very good reason behind it, but by not letting the community know what’s going on and not leaving an open thread for the community to keep conversing, it’s almost like the Shakesville group is burning down their own house. Even active commenters are not going to keep coming back to a dark site indefinitely.
At the same time, because we don’t know what’s going on, I think can only go so far when it comes to creating a second space or new space, because Liss might well just be taking break and come back strong.
I don’t know that I have any answers to any of this, but at least you’ve found a way to keep the conversation alive!
i’ve been struggling with the same frustrations, which is why i opened this. i think liss must have good reasons for keeping mum. she’s always been very open and has definitely put a kibash on any of the contributors talking about what’s happening for now. i don’t think we can make judgments about why they’re not saying anything, but someone upthread mentioned that posting on shakesville itself requires someone to be monitoring, which may be why they shut it down.
i firmly believe that the community members who care about it will come back if and when it returns. i also trust melissa to tell us when a decision is made, so it won’t be indefinite, even though it may feel like it at the moment.
Well, if Shakesville does get closed, it’ll have been because we were asking of others that which we would/could not do ourselves – Liss and the mods work harder than I can begin to imagine.
So any space that did get set up would need to be *very* carefully planned to take that into account.
For example, perhaps you’d need more mods, but then, what would happen if/when they disagreed? Who would get the casting vote? And so on.
Aside from that – the community exists because of the chat, so even if you did create a blog, things like the Friday Pub would be great to keep, as would the blogarounds.
Actually, I’d say that those would probably be the most important.
We do have a stake in Shakesville as daily readers/commenters/participants, donors, no?
“i think yes, as long as it’s not with any demands on melissa or other contributors.”
Exactly — I think we have to realize that our biggest stake is in Melissa herself, and the other contributors. If they’re in a place where they don’t feel safe or as if they can take care of themselves because of some aspects of the blog, then it will do us little good to have Shakesville.
Of course, the other possibility could be that Melissa is planning the final overthrow of capitalist patriarchy and will soon come riding down the Hill of Revolution on a garland-bedecked unicorn, holding the Great Sunflower of Liberation aloft!
That is what I will tell myself, at any rate.
Thank you IQB! I had to stop and add my $.02 all the way down the page before I got here, LOL!
But this is great, and gives us a chance to still connect while Liss takes care of herself and makes a decision.
Tricky threading system.
yah, it’s getting on my nerves a little. it’s too hard to keep up!
Dear Shakers — While we’re all worrying about Liss and her crew….
There’s an online petition for imprisoned journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling up at
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/free-euna-and-laura
Their currently at about 36,000 signatures and are hoping to get about 50,000 to deliver to the North Korean Permanent Mission in NY. Please consider adding your name!
Heather (aka Shaker Calluna)
Signed!
Signed – a small teaspoon, but if it’s one thing Shakesville has taught me, it’s that a small teaspoon is better than no teaspoon.
I was sick in bed all weekend, so I missed most of what went on most recently. InfamousQBert, thanks for setting up this thread so we can talk.
Molliecat pretty much summed up what I’m thinking about all this.
As I read what Paul and Deeky have pointed out, it seems the fact is that Shakesville has become an unsafe space for Melissa. This is the second time in just a few months she had to walk away.
I have a idea though. Comments of what Melissa should do, or that the house is burning down, or it’s the assholes fault or where do we go now or whatever seems to me not the way to go. Shakesville has become unsafe for Melissa.(and most likely others). I’m not trying to be above it or finger wag or any self-serving bullshit. I appreciate the space to say it, but that’s where I think it starts and stops, for right now anyway.
totally agreed – see the OP. this is not the place to make requests or demands from anyone except ourselves.
ETA: it’s a space to discuss what the community means to each of us and to try to keep it alive in the interim.
I’m with ya and thanks for the space again.
“I have a idea though. Comments of what Melissa should do, or that the house is burning down, or it’s the assholes fault or where do we go now or whatever seems to me not the way to go.”
I guess I’m struggling a bit here, as this thread is NOT Shakesville, and I think those of us who spend time at Shakesville everyday do so not just because we cherish what Melissa and the contributors post, but because of the other regular commenters. So I’m enjoying the conversations here about the future, because I certainly don’t want to lose track of anyone during this downtime and because I’m invested in Shakesville and its community.
I take the thread so far as us all sort of processing what’s going on, sense-making, if you will allow me to use an overly academic term.
I was hoping it WAS a place to say “where do we go now” — at least while Shakesville is still closed down.
“the fact is that Shakesville has become an unsafe space for Melissa. ”
And this illustrates the problem. McEwan needs to decide if the site is an actual “community” (with all that entails) or her own personal blog/”safe space”/hugbox.
It cannot be both.
she never asked for a hugbox. she has a more than full-time unpaid job in running the blog. i don’t think it’s asking too much that we respect her and her mental AND physical safety in the space that she creates and maintains.
“she’s always been very open and has definitely put a kibash on any of the contributors talking about what’s happening for now. “
Simply not true. Please do not make assumptions.
i wasn’t assuming. i’ve been told by at least 2 contributors that they can’t say anything for now. i apologize if interpreted wrong.
We never said that was because Melissa asked us not to, though. (Sorry to pile on, but it’s an important point to clarify, I think.)
gotcha – i didn’t mean to confuse.
An honest assessment from a Shakesville regular reader (hope that’s OK):
What I think is great about Shakesville – Melissa is wickedly smart, passionate, extremely funny, and completely committed to feminism and progressive causes. I just love her writing and and her blog. Many of the other posters are also quite enjoyable to read.
What I find bizarre about Shakesville – intolerance of dissenting opinion; the cruelty and mockery that the posters sometimes exhibit towards those they think have made a ‘transgression’ against Melissa and/or the site (which is in complete contradiction to their own behavioral expectations); the constant ‘drama’ surrounding whether the posters’ feelings might get hurt (it really gets overblown sometimes in a pretty strange way); the concomitant walking on eggshells by many of the commenters who seem to be petrified that they might cross a line and the pile-on will commence and their constant apologies and begging for forgiveness; etc. It can sometimes seem like a pretty strange, dysfunctional soap opera there.
I hope it’s OK to say these things honestly. I find it to be a very unique and stimulating blog, but quite strange in the controlling dynamic between the posters and the commentariat.
I also find the complete shutdown over there to be a very controlling, and not very nice, behavior towards many of the regular commenters. I mean, come on, it’s pretty disrespectful, and it’s almost as if they enjoy the drama of the ‘silence’.
Anyway, these are my impressions, I am sorry if they are not all happy ones.
this isn’t the place for complaining or accusations. it’s a place for reconnecting and possibly coming up with ideas for how to keep the community going, should shakesville shut down.
i’m not requiring all thoughts to be happy thoughts. just that we not focus on what we find “wrong” with shakesville.
I also find the complete shutdown over there to be a very controlling, and not very nice, behavior towards many of the regular commenters. I mean, come on, it’s pretty disrespectful, and it’s almost as if they enjoy the drama of the ’silence’.
Try as I might, I simply can’t let this go by without comment. It is absolutely astounding to me how people can assume that the contributors and moderators might have been putting there attention elsewhere, and this was not out of disrespect for the community or the blog, nor was this about “enjoying the drama” — I, and nearly every other contributor, spent the bulk of the entire duration since Friday in discussion and conference about what constituted right action on our parts.
I spent, literally, hours on this every day since last Wednesday — and this is a fraction of what Liss does — every day.
This is precisely the kind of “all about me” attitude that just baffles me from some people. As if you cannot extend your understanding to someone else’s experience to imagine that what they might be doing was actually the ULTIMATE respectful act — thinking, talking, and making thoughtful choices about what was best for Melissa, the blog, and the community.
This is precisely the kind of “all about me” attitude that just baffles me from some people. As if you cannot extend your understanding to someone else’s experience to imagine that what they might be doing was actually the ULTIMATE respectful act — thinking, talking, and making thoughtful choices about what was best for Melissa, the blog, and the community.
In the spirit of the recent Shakesville post “All In”…
…word.
(I see the sort of attitude all the time in the online knitting community, as well.)
I tried several times to craft an honest reply to this, but I was unable to articulate it in a way that would be *heard* rather than just elicit a “STFU” or “go start your own blog” or “what a great flounce”, or some other such thing. And I think this problem is a manifestation of the problematic dynamic of the blog that plays a role in the problem you are currently trying to solve. However, I do not think this level of discussion seems to be possible there.
So I will just say this – it is my opinion that respect is a two-way street and that the moderators often do not abide by the very rules of respect towards commenters that they exhort the commenters to abide by.
I am sorry that I hold this opinion, but I do.
I don’t think Molly is complaining. She’s stating absolutely valid points about how Shakesville is run and how it makes her feel. I’ve been a long-time lurker and I agree completely.
I was hoping it WAS a place to say “where do we go now” — at least while Shakesville is still closed down.
I take the thread so far as us all sort of processing what’s going on, sense-making, if you will allow me to use an overly academic term.
i think it can totally be that. as i’ve tried to say above, it’s not for criticizing of melissa or the other contributors, but for brainstorming and remembering why we want the community to exist in the first place.
A safe space of the size that Shakesville had become is not possible. Not even remotely.
Someone will be offended/triggered/whatever by anything that can be typed.
Hence you get threads where Erica makes a foie gras joke and all people can do is argue about that, and ignore the fact that PETA are fucking assholes.
How about get over yourself, for one. No one cares if you’re vegan, vegetarian, or if you club baby seals every day for dinner (mmmm, blubber). Really. No one cares. I know, hard to imagine, but not one damned Shaker is the center of the universe.
So when you and you and you (and you over there) decide it’s your day to be offended by someone else’s sarcasm, or to tell Deeky you think he’s being “hostile,” or to lecture someone else on word usage, or to think that you of all people can be the one to judge and call someone whose opinion differs from yours a “fauxgressive,” remember that you’re creating more work for the mods than trolls do.
Look at that PETA thread, and count how many times Spud and Scott had to plead with people to get back on track.
And that had nothing to do with trolls.
Angelos, I think very highly of you, but there are several points in your comment that bum me out: “A safe space of the size that Shakesville had become is not possible. Not even remotely.
Someone will be offended/triggered/whatever by anything that can be typed.”
I will quote CatieCat_allin in @ Shakesville in response, because I feel like it’s important: “we are told as feminists, all the time, that we can’t achieve some of the things we aspire to. “Men won’t change”. “Get used to it.” “It’s not the time yet.”
As Liss said, yes, we expect more. Just because it may not have been done, doesn’t mean we can’t put all we’ve got into trying. Feminism has been historically a path of seeking what hasn’t been before; I don’t see this as any different.”
Samantha,
I agree that all battles start somewhere. Even the largest movements were probably two people and an idea, in a room somewhere.
I believe in the teaspoons metaphor. I think it’s a great distillation of the essence of “you gotta start somewhere.”.
I’m not saying don’t try, I’m saying that it’s not 100% possible, and without that understanding Liss and the mods will drive themselves batty. Expect more, but realize that at some point, even if all trolls are banned, there are too many people there now, so these dust-ups with everyone trying to prove their safe space bona-fides by policing every damned other word everyone else writes will happen 2-3 times a week, no matter how many people are self-flagellating over there right now.
There are a number of other threads out there right now, the two most prominent (because they were linked from Shakesville) being at konagod and apostate, where former contributors and commenters are going through they reasons they left.
Hell, I have a whole group of blog and Facebook friends that are former Shakers, numbering in the high 20s, and most of those are from year one, when the community was under 100 people. I talk with and “hang out” with them MUCH more than I comment at the Ville, because it’s not worth the aggravation.
I e-mailed to Melissa the following suggestion (paraphrased):
You did the right thing with that PETA thread. And I would do it more.
Once every couple days, I would nip a thread right in the bud. After a couple reminders that don’t work, I would just say “Discussion pertaining to the post at hand has run its course. This thread is now closed.”
10-15 of those a month, and I wouldn’t even hesitate. Life’s too short. You and your mods should only have to swat down the occasional “fat bitches” or “faggoty faggots” or whatever (except the truly funny ones that belong in the Shaxicon), not constantly poke and prod your “regulars”. I would rather lose 20 readers that couldn’t figure it out than waste 2 hours a day swatting flies when I could be writing more, and having a vigorous discussion in comment. That would sink in quickly. And then I’d keep doing it.
There is a post up at Shakesville now from the other contributors.
thanks for the update, leigh!
I think Molly and Angelos make some valid points. The continued existence of Shakesville as a ‘safe space’ is dependent on the readers and commenters, but it seems like the ability to disrupt that space rests mostly with people for whom the site does not hold particular psychological or emotional value. Not trolls, necessarily, but readers who do not conceive of/rely upon Shakesville as a ‘safe space’, who may very well be strident feminists and allies but who do not hold the site in the same regard as others. Many commenters who have responded to the contributors’ post may or may not be the ones guilty of repeatedly breaking the community rules, while those who exacerbate the community’s instability may not care whether the site shuts down, or even be cognizant that instability exists. So those who value Shakesville are essentially relying on the good behavior of those who do not.
Thanks for this thread. I’m trying to read the other one at Shakesville, and I can’t decide if I need to finish all 538 posts before commenting or not.
Shakesville has been very important to me for many reasons. I’ve learned an enormous amount there, and consciously tried to reform my vocabulary because words matter. I’ve seen good models of appropriate behavior that I can follow. I’ve learned some things I can do to help make the world a better place. I’ve met some wonderful bloggers. It’s where I get the important news.
I’ve really missed Shakesville.
i think if you get through the first 200 or so, you’re probably safe to post. i haven’t looked at today, but nothing really new was being said after about that.
Actually, the tone of the conversation did change around 450 or so. But by the time I’d finished reading, the thread was closed. As was Melissa’s first thread after she came back.
But since all I had to say was, “I missed Shakesville a lot,” and “I hope Melissa gets what she needs,” that had indeed been adequately said by others.